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Messages - Billy

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A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: 1428 Elm Street
« on: June 14, 2020, 09:20:53 PM »
No surprise that they didn't think to ask Langenkamp back for part 2.Especially considering that they didn't even ask Robert Englund to return as Freddy. That piece of Nightmare history still boggles my mind. The one scene of the replacement Freddy that still made it into the film is so telling as to how terrible a choice excluding Robert would be.
Lol, the gym scene when he kills Schneider.

Interesting Robert commentary in the first clip where he mentions Wes letting Freddy out of a cage. Much like the thinking in New Nightmare.

Love that moment in the second clip where Robert speaks from the Freddy perspective. It's one of the reasons I imagine he was able to bring so much to the character over the years. Its true, the villain has to believe he is right.

I wish I could upload a DVD I have , its over an hour of behind the scenes footage from Dream Warriors. Lots of special effects takes. Especially with the snake.I got it from the actress who played Taryn,the beautiful Jennifer Ruben
Oh man I’d love to see that footage.

I also want to see Roberts interview on MTV when he’s in full makeup, and wears ray ban sunglasses. I think it was during the filming of Dream Master. I remember watching it in 1989, but I can’t find it anywhere! It’s very rare. There’s a couple of clips of it on the Elm Street encyclopaedia DVD, but I want to see the whole thing.

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: One,Two Freddys Coming for You
« on: June 12, 2020, 05:38:44 AM »
      One of the many aspects of Wes Craven's A Nightmare on Elm Street that fascinated me from my first viewing was the use and presence of the children's jump-rope song.

It's haunting,catchy, and creates a sense of history.

When we first hear the song it is early in the movie immediately following the first horrific Nightmare of Tina Grey. As she lays back on her bed,sweating from fear,clutching her crucifix to her now razor torn nightgown,she prepares for a sleepless night.

The implication to me has always been that this song is going through her head and follows her into the morning. Is it something she heard in her dream or is a subconscious memory from childhood coming back to her? A child's prayer to ward off evil spirits?

As the night fades into the morning on screen we are shown four young girls in their white party dresses playing jump-rope and reciting the song.Could this too be a memory of Tina's recalling reciting this same jump-rope tune as a child when playing with her friends?The young girl enthusiastically jumping rope is blonde like Tina.

Or is it simply the Nightmare seeping into her daily thoughts?Clawing it's way into her waking thoughts.Continuing the fear.

An effective method that has been used many times in horror movies is the use of children singing a creepy tune.It's often unsettling as the child singing is traditionally presented as looking as if it's innocence is tainted by the very evil of which it is singing.But the use here to me is something more than a familiar scary movie trope. This song and the fact that it is children singing it actually has a historic reference to the story of our characters.

As we all know,Freddy is the Santa Claus of slaughtering children.He terrorized kiddies from parks to playgrounds,backyards to bedrooms. His murderous efforts were the stuff of urban legend even before he was caught.But after they caught him,it became something much worse.The terror had a face...and a name.And his name was spoken everywhere once he was caught.Freddy's name and face and even his exploits would now invade the homes of every child thanks to the nightly news,papers, and overheard conversations of parents.Children would go to bed with his name echoing in their heads.They now would have a name to the one who murdered their friends.

And children respond to fear in their own way. It would not be out of the ordinary for them to use one of their choices of childhood play to cope with something dark and scary like death.

Rhyme chanted by children while skipping has been around for ages. Examples of English-language rhymes have been found going back to at least the 17th century.Often utilizing folklore.

The nursery rhyme "Ring Around the Rosie" is itself an urban legend of childhood play that is thought to be about The Great Plague. If true, this historic use is creepy in itself.Imagine kids playing outside your window singing this little ditty...for fun...while friends and family were dying in great numbers and your chance of catching the same sickness they sang about was just as great?

The legend of Lizzie Borden found its way into a jump-rope song

    Lizzie Borden took an axe
    She gave her mother forty whacks,
    After she saw what she had done,
    She gave her father forty-one.

The Nightmare song is itself an adaption of a children's nursery rhyme , "One,Two,Buckle My Shoe" .A corruption of it's former innocence.

But when did the Children of Elm St begin to sing of their neighborhood boogeyman? Soon after his capture? Years later? I'm back and forth between the song appearing sometime shortly after he was captured or after he "vanished" that the kids started up their little rhyme .

After his capture they would have felt safe to poke the bear, so to speak with their playtime song. I can even picture Freddy somehow hearing this childrens playtime rhyme while still alive and smiling gleefully. It must have sparked joy in the black hole where his heart used to be to know the power of fear he held over the children of the town. So much that they are singing about him.

And if it started after he "vanished" then the thought that he was still out there would be alive and well in their little minds.Growing the fear. Their protectors had failed, and Freddy was free to murder them at any moment.

I'm not sure how much time passed between capture and release .While they would likely to rush the trial through as fast as they could in a small town court, it would still probably be months between capture and release.And in that time the kids would learn his name,know his face. Overhear stories of his crimes. Having lost friends to this maniacs hand, they would not be able to easily ignore the horrors.And the jumprope song could have come out in those moments between.

As Marge says "it was even worse after they caught him". There would be no ignoring the monster or the details of his crimes.Everyone in town would be talking about him....and his victims. Often, I'm sure, forgetting that little ears were listening in the room.

Kids would be asking their Mommies and Daddies "Is Freddy going to come get me?Take me away like he did my friend?".And while Parents would try to reassure the kids that he was now in the hands of the law and would never be able to hurt them.That he would be locked up away from the world for the rest of his life.The kids would still be afraid.If something like him got to their friends before...what else is out there waiting in the dark?

Their parents,knowing the truth of his disappearance,would reassure their little ones that Freddy was gone for good and would never be able to hurt them.(Little did they know).But not every parent in town played part in the burning of the boogeyman.So not everyone had the assurance to convince their children they would be safe now.

If we follow the story into Part 3, then there was no body to be discovered,officially.So as far as the people of Springwood knew, Freddy was still out there...alive...and he could come for them.The whole town, minus the parents who knew the truth,would be afraid.There would be no reason to believe their children were safe now.Sure, some would assume that Freddy ran out of town as soon as he could to become someone else's problem. But there was no way of knowing for sure.Or that he would never return.Even the Parents would be afraid of Freddy.

That's a whole lot of fear generated by an entire town of adults and children.

So maybe a month or so after Freddy's mysterious or more of the kids would start up the little playground rhyme.In their own little way of facing the fear.And the rhyme would spread quickly, as every child would identify with the fear of the song .

While the exact timeline of Freddy is never concretely established in the first movie, it's possible that Nancy's childhood would have been not far from the actual events that lead to his death. I've always liked the omitted story idea that Nancy was the second child of Marge and Donald Thompson. That her other sibling was actually murdered by Freddy and she was conceived after the event when her parents felt the world would be safe once again for their child.A celebratory second chance.

So this would mean that even 5 or so years after the death of Freddy, the children of the playground would be still speaking of him,even if only in play.

HOW did it all begin?
I imagine it begins slowly as big kids and older brothers start scaring little kids/younger siblings with tales of how Freddy's gonna get them.
I imagine these older children teasing their younger brothers and sisters with "Freddy's coming for you" ..."gonna get you"....."take you to his boiler room". Even chasing them around the living room with butter knives clenched between their fingers.I could even see some parents/adults using the threat of Freddy to try and get kids to behave...."You better stop,or Freddys going to come and take you way" Their intent is playful spooking with no real maliciousness but it creates real fear in the minds of the little ones who may not be able to let go of the real life terror behind the mockery

Over time, this would lead to the birth of the jump rope song the kids sing for "fun".

Always keeping Freddy present in the minds of the kiddies. Never letting him fade away.But remember,not every kid is having fun. Some are having normal nightmares of this "Freddy" they keep hearing about.The fear is building.

And it is within these dreams Freddy may have found a way to cross over.
Did the song instill the beginnings of the fear that Freddy needed to return?  Did it create the link that Freddy needed to get inside their dreams since he was already spending time inside their minds from childhood? 

What started as a playful game .A means to cope with the internal anxiety of the unknown of the imagined threat of Freddy. Becomes itself an instrument of fear. One that Freddy would years later turn back on the children and use for his own purposes.

The last line of the jump-rope song serves as a curious harbinger of what was to come.

But which came first ....the chicken.....or The Nightmare?The bad dream or the dream of killing in the afterlife? Either way, this chicken came home to "roast"

Might Freddy have heard this tune before he died? Or did he pull it from the subconscious of his intended victims? Taking a long forgotten childhood memory and throwing it back in their face,
The rhyme appears repeatedly in The Nightmare world of the movies.Performed by young boys and girls who presumably are previous victims of Freddy.Dressed in their funeral best

Pristine white party dresses and clothes. Suggesting innocence. But also, there is an element of class depicted in this representation. Dressing up your children in specific clothing to go to a social party is something often seen done by wealthy families.Freddy is often said to have hated these well to do Springwood families who act and appear as if the darkness of the world can't touch them.He would show them the evil this world has to offer, that he has seen first hand.

I've wondered about these children.Are they spirits of the murdered? Souls trapped in The Nightmare to wander and play in the dark forever.

Is Freddy using them?Placing them in the paths of the dreamers to amplify the fear they already feel?

Are they conscious souls or just figments of his twisted imagination. Memories of children taken in the past

If they are previous victims,When did they first hear the tune? Who taught it to them?

It stands to reason that the song originated some time after Freddy was captured and maybe before he was burned.It probably emerged within the first year of Freddy's discovery and death.And then shortly after became a playground staple for a good 3 to 5 years.Fading in popularity as the next fads took over the kids imagination. Jump-rope as a play activity grew in popularity in the 50's but started to decline over the next decade as the temptation of television pulled kids back indoors.But some things never die away completely.Trends and fads reemerge as next generations discover them in their relatives record collections.Old songs get sung again. All it would take is for one kid to come to the playground and tell his friends :Have you ever heard of Freddy Krueger?Freddy's story was likely to be the top ghost story told at the sleepovers in Springwood." My big brother told me a story about this guy who used to murder kids right here in Springwood.He had knives for fingers...and he would come for you at night,snatching you from your bed." Always ending the story with the song" One...two...Freddy's coming for you"

And so the legend of Krueger would be passed on and on.Never forgotten.Despite the parents of the town trying to hide the past.

Still,Kids in the Nightmare sequels were not aware of Freddy and his past ,let alone the jump-rope song.It was not part of THEIR childhood.In each sequel someone had to do research to learn Freddy was in fact real,to explain his past & how it might connect to them and that he was not a figment of an overactive imagination.

        In Part 2, Jesse Walsh is new to town so it's understandable that he is unaware of the gloved one. But ,presumably, Lisa Weber,Jesse's friend, has lived in Springwood for a good part of her life and even in the neighborhood of the Thompson home as she walks to meet Jesse at 1428 Elm St for a car ride to school. Yet she  mentions in regards to reading Nancy Thompson's name in the diary that she didn't know her as it was " before my time".Grady knew of Nancy and even what happened to Glen across the street.But neither Grady nor Lisa seem to be aware of Freddy Krueger?

How can one live in this town and NOT know of this violent past,even in passing enough that mentions of razors for fingers or red and green sweater would trigger awareness? Has the town already started to cover-up it's horrible history?
   In Part 3, Kristin seems to first hear and then partially recall the jump-rope song from her Nightmares. When Nancy arrives to the hospital and hears Kristin reciting that tune familiar from her own childhood, she is surprised and concerned: "Where did you learn that rhyme?" .

This to me indicates that the jump-rope song had long since faded away from the playground.Nancy is alarmed that someone would know this rhyme from her childhood, one that she herself probably heard very little in the years leading up to her first encounter with Freddy Krueger and even less since. Kristin knowing about this rhyme indicates something is seriously wrong:Freddy's back.

This is Krueger's revenge of it's original intent.In Dream Warriors,Nancy replies to a question about what was that rhyme by explaining that it is "something we used to say to keep the boogeyman away".

When did she do this? In the original Nightmare she is seen dreamily reciting the rhyme while slipping into sleep in the bathtub.Almost as if she is subconsciously sleepily recalling the rhyme.And it's supposed security prayer purpose

By this point in the movie she hasn't emerged from her dream with the fedora from Freddy's head with his name written on the inside.Her mother hasn't taken her to the basement and revealed the terrible history of her family and direct connection to Freddy.

Nancy,when confronting her Mother with the hat, even exclaims "Fred Krueger, Mom. Fred Krueger. Do you know who that is, Mother? Because if you do, you better tell me because he's after me now" .Even at this point Nancy doesn't know a thing about Fred Krueger,nor does she directly correlate him with the old jump rope song.

She has only had the the school Nightmare where Krueger says to her "Come to Freddy" and heard Tina drawing a connection from her own nightmare to the jump-rope song of their shared childhood in an almost throwaway comment .

It is implied that both Nancy and Tina had their first Nightmare on the same night of the beginning of the movie.Freddy having visited them both in a similar fashion,yet both survived the first night.Nancy seems relatively unaffected by the Nightmare she had.In the original script its implied that Krueger just walked into the room she was in,scrapped his knives along the wall and walked out the other side as if he was just checking up on her.However, Tina is still freaked out the next morning and was likely eager to discuss it with her best friend before school.

We never hear Rod or Glen's reference the jumprope song themselves in any way.Granted, neither of them have heard the name Freddy mentioned in relation to their dream.

What might Nancy have known of Freddy,other than the rhyme from her childhood?Wouldn't Nancy, as a inquisitive child, have asked who this "Freddy" was and why he was "coming for you"? out of curiosity even back then?Nancy's Parents would never have discussed Freddy in her presence.Can you picture their faces when the first time they heard her SINGING about Freddy?!

She probably learned the rhyme on the playground as a child.And even heard stories about the man who inspired it. But as she grew up, it must have faded to the background of her memories.

Nancy says to Tina -"Sounds like a real boogeyman. 1 2 Freddy's coming for you" when we first meet her

It's interesting that she says " Sounds like a REAL boogeyman." and then immediately references the regional jumprope song that is part of her towns and families history.

Now, the "REAL" could just be part teenage sarcasm.Like "that guys a real winner" in reference to some jerk.

But it could also be her subconscious calling forth the memories of childhood and her own interaction with the jumprope song. Meaning she knew it was based off a real life boogeyman but probably didnt immediately recall the details.

Then the next time she references it is after her classroom Nightmare.The one in which she hears the monster say "Come to Freddy".Now,at this point , she is still not 100% aware of what is going on.Though she is starting to question,as that burn on her arm didn't come from nowhere.

In her mind the use of the name "Freddy" in her dream could just be her subconscious taking that conversation with Tina,who would be heavy on her mind the day after her murder, and giving the monster a name from the referenced jumprope memory from the day before.

But then that evening as she slips into sleep while relaxing in the bathtub,her half awake mind goes to the jumprope song...again.She is likely recalling the monster saying his name,and then it matching the name in the old song. And in the drowsy moment finds herself reciting the tune.

But it does bring to question why she never references the jumprope song again.Never asks anyone about it or brings up the coincidental connection.Especially after she pulls the hat with the name out of the dream."Do you remember who Freddy WAS in that old Jumprope song?" A perfect moment for that question would have been with Glen while on the bridge.

This thought that Nancy was well aware of the jump-rope song even at a young age,long before she was first visited by Freddy in her dreams means that he has always been a part of her life.

But just when did she use to sing this rhyme for protection from the boogeyman? Or was that just her way of avoiding the truth with this Dr Gordan she just met? On that subject,just how exactly does the rhyme work as a means of invoking protection? Does reciting the rhyme mean you are aware of Freddy,and the awareness means he's no longer stranger danger?We are often afraid of the unknown.

                                                       1...2...Coming for you
                                                            (The threat is real!)
                                                       3...4...Better lock your door
                                             (You are not safe even in your own home!)
                                                          5...6...Grab your crucifix
                                                          (Pray for safety,help!)
                                                      7...8...Gonna stay up late...
       (Stay awake!....stay alert!He comes at night...grabs you while you sleep from your own bed!)
                                                 (You WILL be too scared to sleep!)
Hmm, yeah it’s complicated with the jump rope girls. They could be real, or they could just be in Tina’s mind. Those jump rope girls are also the same ones at the end of the movie.

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: The Future of Elm Street
« on: June 07, 2020, 10:47:48 AM »
It’d be good if they could cover Freddy’s life and death all in 1 movie. Obviously they could cover everything, from his trial to when the courts let him go on a technicality, to the parents burning him alive, and when he becomes a dream killer. You’d probably need like a 3 hour movie for all that, but I think they can do it.

Horror (General) / Re: The COVID-19 Horror Film Marathon
« on: June 06, 2020, 10:59:46 PM »
• Nightmare 3, dream warriors
• Nightmare 4, dream master
• The Exorcist
• Halloween (2018)
• The Nun
• IT (1990)
• The Conjuring 1 and 2

Haven’t seen it yet, but I’d like to. I don’t care what people say, I like Nightmare 2. It’s dark, it’s creepy, and - along with Dream Warriors - Freddy looks the scariest in this one.

Open Topics / Re: The Game Room
« on: June 06, 2020, 01:33:49 AM »
I just recently bought the Nintendo Entertainment System mini. I love the old school video games, especially the NES, but I also liked the Sega Master System too.

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: Freddy on Japanese TV
« on: June 06, 2020, 01:25:29 AM »
Hahaha, great clip!

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: The Future of Elm Street
« on: June 01, 2020, 10:51:59 AM »
I think if one more Nightmare movie is to be big, you need to have people getting involved who are familiar with the series.

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: The Future of Elm Street
« on: May 30, 2020, 05:23:58 AM »
If Robert Englund were to be brought back,the movie has gotta be big in scope.Because,lets be real, this will be the last one with him. This movie has to be epic .With the return of Alice and Jacob.With the return of Nancy as a spiritual Dream Master. With Nancy and Alice facing off against Krueger together in one big Final Woman fight.With all the amazing CGI and practical effects that could never be done before possible.
Yes, I agree. If it is the last one with Robert, it has to be just as good as the original, if not better. Yes, the original is a classic and will always be the best in most people’s eyes, but they have to go out with a bang if this is to be the last one with Englund.

A Nightmare on Elm Street / Re: The Future of Elm Street
« on: May 27, 2020, 07:18:50 PM »
I want to see at least one more movie with Robert playing Freddy. But I want to see a dark, creepy and serious Freddy like the 1984 original, and not a “comedian” Freddy as in the later movies. I’m not really a fan of any more “versus”, even though I didn’t mind Freddy vs Jason. I want them to go back to the original concept.

Introduce Yourself / Hey there
« on: May 27, 2020, 07:04:18 PM »
Yes, it’s me again. Glad to have the forum back, and looking forward to chatting to everyone again.

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